TESTIMONY OF NELSON DELGADO

The testimony of Nelson Delgado was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Nelson Delgado, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission Executive Order. No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses.

The Commission will provide you copies of those documents. I cannot do it

at this point because I do not have them with me, but we will provide you with copies of the documents to which I have referred.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice, before he is required to come in and give testimony. I don't think you had 3 days' notice.

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that you would be willing to waive that notice requirement since you are here; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you this morning concerning the association that the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he was a member of the United States Marine Corps. The Commission has been advised that you also were a member of the United States Marine Corps and were stationed with Oswald in Santa Ana, Calif., for a period of time.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. DELGADO. Nelson Delgado.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now in the United States Army; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank?

Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your serial number?

Mr. DELGADO. RA282 53 799.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you stationed?

Mr. DELGADO. I am stationed at Delta Battery, 4th Missile Battalion, 71st Artillery, in Hazlet, N.J.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I joined the Army on November 1, 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work do you do in the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I am a 94116, which means that I am a cook, with a linguist digit, which means I can speak and write Spanish fluently. That is what that last 6 in that digit means.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go into the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Army at Fort Ord, Calif.

Mr. LIEBELER. And would you briefly tell us the training that you received after you went into the Army and the places at which you were stationed from the time you went into the Army up to the present time?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, in 1960, November 1960, I reported at Fort Ord. Approximately 15 days after I reported there I received orders for Germany. I had no basic training because of my Marine Corps basic training took care of that.

December the 15th, 14th, around there, I left for Germany. And I arrived in Germany, and I served with Headquarters Battery, 5th Missile Battalion, 6th Artillery, APO 34, at Baumholder, Germany.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed in Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. I was stationed there approximately 2 years and a day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you stationed with the same outfit all that time?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Six months of the time I was with them; then I was transferred to a line battery, C Battery, same missile battalion, same artillery, and I was for a while the old man's driver, the captain's driver; and then I was--I asked for a transfer to the messhall so I could get advanced in my rating, and I was put in the messhall, then promoted there also, and I have been a cook since then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay with the C Battery until you left Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you leave Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. December the 8th. December the 8th.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1962?

Mr. DELGADO. 1962, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed after that?

Mr. DELGADO. Fort Hancock, N.J.; and from there I was put in the line battery, Delta Battery.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where you are assigned at the present time?

Mr. DELGADO. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you working now as a cook?

Mr. DELGADO. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the mess steward of your messhall; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. No, not mess steward; first cook.

Mr. LIEBELER First cook?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not in charge of the messhall?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I am in charge of the personnel that work the day I am working.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your MOS, I believe it is called, your military occupation specialty, has an indication that you are qualified to speak Spanish or another language; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take tests while you were in the Army to establish your proficiency in the Spanish language?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I took the language proficiency test, and also the OCS test, the regular test they give you when you first go into the service, and I passed them all. It's in my 201 files, my military records.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass the Spanish proficiency test?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. In fact I was offered to be sent to Monterey language school.

Mr. LIEBELER. To continue your studies in connection with the Spanish language?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You took the Spanish proficiency test when you came into the Army at Fort Ord; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. DELGADO. I was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., in 1939.

Mr. LIEBELER. At what address? Where?

Mr. DELGADO. I believe it was Kings County Hospital.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents still reside in Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. 303 47th Street. That's what my address was during the Marine Corps, but right now the neighborhood is tore down, so there's no record of it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents reside in Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. No. My parents are divorced. One lives in Puerto Rico, and my mother lives in California.

Mr. LIEBELER. You lived at the address in Brooklyn that you just gave me from the time you were born until the time you went into the Marine Corps; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us briefly where you went to school.

Mr. DELGADO. That's pretty hard to keep track of, because I was like a yo-yo, back and forth from one parent to the other. But I went to school in P.S- No. 2.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. In Brooklyn, until the third grade, and I was transferred. I went to California with my mother. I was there in the Park Avenue Grammar School from the third grade to the fifth.

Mr. LIEBELER. What city in California?

Mr. DELGADO. Wilmington, Calif. And then I went back to New York, back to P.S. No. 2 for the 5th grade to the 6th, graduated from there, went to public school, Dewey Junior High School--I don't know what P.S. it is--from the 7th grade to the 8th and then went back to California and went to Wilmington Junior High School from the 7th to the about the 11th grade, and the 11th grade I went back to Brooklyn into Manual Training High School and dropped out after the 11th grade.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have not graduated from high school?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I have my high school graduation through USAFL.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the United States Armed Forces Institute; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you dropped out of school here in Brooklyn, did you then join the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I held a job for a while at Van Dyk & Reeves, on 42d Street and 2d Avenue, in Brooklyn, N.Y.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a job was that?

Mr. DELGADO. It was just a regular laborer at an olive factory, making Maraschino cherries and olives and so forth. And it lasted about 2 1/2 months, and I joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do both of your parents speak Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are they both from Puerto Rico originally?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did they come from Puerto Rico?

Mr. DELGADO. My father came when he was roughly 20 years of age. My mother came when she was about 13.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately hold old are your parents now?

Mr. DELGADO. My father is around 48. My mother is about 42.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you join the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. Down at Whitehall Street, in New York City.

Mr. LIEBELER. What training did you receive? Where were you sent?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, when we left New York I was sent to Parris Island, S.C., for basic training. Upon completion of that, I was sent to Camp Le Jeune, N.C., for intensive training. Then I received schooling in electronics school at Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you were there at Jacksonville?

Mr. DELGADO. I was there in 19--the the beginning of 1957.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the exact title of the school that you went to? Do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. Electronics school is all I can remember. From there, upon graduation from there, I received my choice of training, which was aircraft control and warning, and I was sent to school at Biloxi Air Force Base. Miss., and there I went to aircraft control and warning school there, and it lasted about 7 weeks. Upon completion there and graduation, I received my orders for Marine Air Control Squadron 9, Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you arrive at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. The beginning of 1958.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to the time that you arrived at Santa Aria?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know Oswald while you were in school at Biloxi or Jacksonville?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He was past that already.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald had been to these schools?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently that Oswald had been in school in Jacksonville and Biloxi?

Mr. DELGADO. All of us in MOS 6741 knew that he had been there.

Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the record, MOS stands for Military Occupation Specialty. Is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the MOS number that you have just referred to was what?

Mr. DELGADO. Airborne electronics operators is about the equivalent, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Airborne electronics operator?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; our job was the surveillance of aircraft in distress, control of intercepts and approaches, and mostly air surveillance and help of aircraft running into problems.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you statiofed at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. From 1958, I would say, until November 2, 1959, when I got discharged.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were at Santa Ann after you completed your training, throughout your entire Marine Corps career?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Until the time you were discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have access to classified information of any sort in the course of your work at Santa Aria?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; we all had access to information, classified information. I believe it was classified secret. We all had secret clearances. There was some information there as to different codes and challenges that we had to give to aircraft and challenges and so on.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, if I can understand correctly the nature of your work, you actually worked in a control room?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Observing radar screens?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when the radar screen would pick up an aircraft, you would then challenge that aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it would have to identify itself?

Mr. DELGADO. That's true.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the code or signals that you sent to the aircraft requesting it to identify itself were classified information?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right, along with the range capabilities of the radar sets and their blindspots and so forth and so on. You know, each site has blind-spots, and we know the degrees where our blindspots are and who covers us and that information. That's considered secret, what outfit covers us and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what was the latter----

Mr. DELGADO. What outfit covers us, that we can see. And as I say, the capabilities of the radars, as I said before.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far out they can reach?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And pick up an aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and how high----

Mr. LIEBELER. And how high----

Mr. DELGADO. And how low we can catch them and where we can't catch them.

Mr. LIEBELER. And I suppose all the men who worked, with the radar sets knew these things?

Mr. DELGADO. They all knew. What do they call it now--authentication charts, which is also a secret.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of these charts?

Mr. DELGADO. Authorization chart is, if we receive an order over the phone, over the headsets--authentication. Pardon me. That's the word. Let's say this order, we can question it. What it actually amounts to, he has to authenticate it for us. Now, he should have the same table or code in front of him that I have. He gives me a code. I would look it up in my authentication chart, decipher it, and I could tell whether or not this man has the same thing I am using. And this changes from hour to hour, see. There's no chance of it--and day to day, also.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that the information, the code itself would not be of any particular value to the enemy, since it is changed?

Mr. DELGADO. It's changed from day to day; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you were stationed at Santa Ana that you met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the beginning of 1959. He arrived at our outfit. I didn't take no particular notice of him at the time, but later on we had--we started talking, and we got to know each other quite well. This is all before Christmas, before I took my leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was in 1957 or 1958?

Mr. DELGADO. 1958. And we had basic interests. He liked Spanish, and he talked to me for a while in Spanish or tried to, and since nobody bothered, you know--I was kind of a loner, myself, you know. I didn't associate with too many people.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old were you at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. I was 17--18 years of age; 17 or 18.

Mr. LIEBELER. About the same age as Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. He was the same age as I was. And nothing really developed until I went on leave oh, yes. At the time he was--he was commenting on the fight that Castro was having at Sierra Madres at the beginning, just about the turn of 1959. When I went on leave, it just so happened that my leave coincided with the first of January, when Castro took over. So when I got back, he was the first one to see me, and he said, "Well, you took a leave and went there and helped them, and they all took over." It was a big joke.

So we got along pretty well. He had trouble in one of the huts, and he got transferred to mine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what trouble he had in the other hut?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, the way I understand it, he wouldn't hold his own. Came time for cleanup, and general cleanliness of the barracks, he didn't want to participate, and he would be griping all the time. So the sergeant that was in charge of that hut asked to have him put out, you know. So consequently, they put him into my hut.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were these huts? Were they quonset huts?

Mr. DELGADO. Quonset huts, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And they served as barracks, right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many men----

Mr. DELGADO. Each quonset hut was divided in half. Now, in each half lived six men, two to a room. They were divided into two rooms with a bath room each side, each half of the quonset hut. I was living in one room. Oswald in the other room. And then we had our barracks, we had quite a bit of turnovers, because guys kept coming in and being transferred. Him and I seemed to be the only ones staying in there. And we would meet during working hours and talk. He was a complete believer that our way of government was not quite right, that--I don't know how to say it; it's been so long. He was for, not the Communist way of life, the Castro way of life, the way he was going to lead his people. He didn't think our Government had too much to offer.

He never said any subversive things or tried to take any classified information that I know of out or see anybody about it.

As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range at one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a sharpshooter at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the rifle; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle did you use?

Mr. DELGADO. He had an M-1. We all had M-l's.

Mr. LIEBELER. Carbine or rifle?

Mr. DELGADO. The M-1 rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have them in your quonset hut at all times?

Mr. DELGADO. No, sir; we had them in the armory, in the quonset hut designated as the armory. And we went there periodically to clean them up. And at the time in Santa Ana, he was with me at one time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Each man was assigned a particular rifle; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have to use the rifles to stand inspection?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald kept his rifle in good shape, clean?

Mr. DELGADO. He kept it mediocre.. He always got gigged for his rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did?

Mr. DELGADO Yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without getting gigged for one thing or another.

Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to his rifle?

Mr. DELGADO. With respect to his rifle. He didn't spend as much time as the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. He would, when he was told to. Otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it. He was basically a man that complained quite frequently.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he complained more than the other Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, yes; a little bit more. Anything, anything that they told him to do, he found a way to argue it to a point where both him and the man giving him the order both got disgusted and mad at each other, and while the rest of us were working, he's arguing with the man in charge. For him there was always another way of doing things, an easier way for him to get something done.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't take too well to orders that were given to him?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever notice that he responded better if he were asked to do something instead of ordered to do something?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; well, that's what I worked with him. I never called him Lee or Harvey or Oswald. It was always Oz.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oz.

Mr. DELGADO. Ozzie. I would say, "Oz, how about taking care of the bathroom today?" Fine, he would do it. But as far as somebody from the outside saying, "All right, Oswald, I want you to take and police up that area"--"Why? Why do I have to do it? Why are you always telling me to do it?" Well, it was an order, he actually had to do it, but he didn't understand it like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you and Oswald stationed together at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Basically there were 11 months, from January to the date of my discharge or the date that he took off. He got discharged before I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. August or September 1959, approximately?

Mr. DELGADO. 1959, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when were you discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. I was discharged November 2, 1960--1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he had been overseas prior to the time he came to Santa Aria?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't tell me has was overseas. I got that from the fellows who knew him overseas, Atsugi, Japan, and he was with the Marine Air Control Squadron, I believe it was, at Atsugi. There was a couple of guys stationed with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. I think one of them was Dijonovich. There was two of them stationed with him overseas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn whether Oswald had been any place else overseas other than Atsugi?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that he was stationed in the Philippines for a while?

Mr. DELGADO. No; not that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether any of these other men that had been stationed overseas with Oswald had been to the Philippines?

Mr. DELGADO. No; if they went on a problem from there and got aboard a small carrier, they probably may have taken him, say, to Hawaii or the Philippines or Guam, something like that, for maneuvers, or Okinawa.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no knowledge of it at the time?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were about to tell us, before I went into this question of how long you and Oswald were together, about the rifle practice that you engaged in. Would you tell us about that in as much detail as you can remember?

Mr. DELGADO. We went out to the field, to the rifle range, and before we set out we had set up a pot. High score would get this money; second highest, and so forth down to about the fifth man that was high.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many men were there?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, in our company there was about roughly 80 men, 80 to 100 men, and I would say about 40 of us were in the pot. All low ranking EM's, though. By that I mean corporal or below. None of the sergeants were asked to join. Nine times out of ten they weren't firing, just watching you. They mostly watched to see who was the best firer on the line.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were about 40 men involved in this pot?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that Oswald finished fifth from the highest?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't even place there. He didn't get no money at all. He just barely got his score, which I think was about 170, I think it was, just barely sharpshooter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sharpshooter is the minimum.

Mr. DELGADO. Minimum.

Mr. LIEBELER. Rank?

Mr. DELGADO. It's broken down into three categories: sharpshooters--no; pardon me, take that back; it's marksman is the lowest, sharpshooters, and experts. And then Oswald had a marksman's badge, which was just a plain, little thing here which stated "Marksman" on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was the lowest one?

Mr. DELGADO. That was the lowest. Well, that was qualifying; then there was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you fire with Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but at the same time, and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke, because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, but he didn't give a darn.

Mr. LIEBELER. Missed the target completely?

Mr. DELGADO. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know, going to the range.

Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that the troops divided up into two different groups, one of which operates the targets.

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the other one fires?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you said before that you were in the same line as Oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that he did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And then all of us went to the pits, our particular lines; then we went to the pits, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald worked the pits with you, the same time you did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he was a couple of targets down. It was very comical to see, because he had the other guy pulling the target down, you know, and he will take and maybe gum it once in a while or run the disk up; but he had the other guy pulling it up and bringing it down, you know. He wasn't hardly going to exert himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately how far away Oswald was in the line from you when you fired?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was just one over from me.

Mr. LIEBELER. The next one, the very next one?

Mr. DELGADO. Not the next one, but the one over from that.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was one man between you and Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his performance with the rifle at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. Not during that day, because I was mostly interested in my picking up the money, you know, and I wasn't worrying about what he was doing; in fact if he wasn't bringing it in, I didn't care, you know. I didn't want no competition.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you win any of the money?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many of the Marines won?

Mr. DELGADO. Just five of us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just five?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And which one were you?

Mr. DELGADO. I was---I shot about 192. I came in about third.

Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of the rifle range from the time I was in the is that sometimes the scores that were reported---

Mr. DELGADO. Were erroneous.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were erroneous. Has that been your experience also?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; if there is not close supervision. By this, that you have your buddy in back of you, he could be penciling in your score; if you get a 4, he will put a 5 in there. It doesn't work that way if you go to fire for record, like we did, because they have an NCO line and they got a pit NCO. Now they have a man at that target down there keeping score, and they also have a man back here keeping score, and when both those score cards are turned into the line officer, they both better correspond, and you have no way of communicating with the man down the pit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the way it was handled when you fired this time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there was very little, if any, chance that Oswald's score could have been fixed up; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. The only time you could fix up the score, when you go down for just straight firing, what they call battery column firing, and there is nobody to supervise, you pencil yourself. The Marines is pretty strict about that when you go for line firing. They want both scorecards to correspond with each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time that you fired----

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald during the time that you were stationed at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before in your testimony that you had been interviewed prior to this time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?

Mr. DELGADO. FBI agents.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they talked to you?

Mr. DELGADO. They talked to me about five times.

Mr. LIEBELER. About five times?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been three times?

Mr. DELGADO. One is at home, twice in the battery--no, four times, because they visited me once at home, twice at the battery. the same fellow; then he brought another man in. Yes; four times. Two different fellows. And one time one was a Spanish--I don't know, I guess he was a Spanish interpreter.

Mr. LIEBELER. He spoke Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. He spoke Castilian Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Castilian Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different kind of Spanish from the kind you speak?

Mr. DELGADO. All right. He could go out here in New York City and go down in Spanish Harlem and he would be lost. I mean it would be all right if 90 percent of the Spanish people down there were college graduates, they could understand him. They don't speak that type of Spanish there, nor do they speak it in a lot of other Spanish countries. It's like speaking the English as spoken in England, you know. You can't expect a man from Georgia to try and understand a man from England the way he speaks pure English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have difficulty in understanding this agent when he spoke to you in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No. See, I took it in high school. But he had difficulty in interpreting my Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was likely to have gotten the opinion that you weren't very proficient in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. But I would be willing to challenge him if he and I go down to Spanish Harlem and see who gets across faster.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of these FBI agents when they talked to you? Were they----

Mr. DELGADO. The one fellow, the older one, white-haired fellow, he was a nice guy. And the two other ones, I never seen them before, two different fellows.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many agents talked to you altogether?

Mr. DELGADO. I don't know if this Spanish guy was an agent or not. He never introduced himself. But there was this white-hatred fellow, and then two different men; three men altogether, not including this Spanish guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there would have been four men altogether?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when these people talked to you?

Mr. DELGADO. The first time I came in contact was, let's see, about January was the first time I was contacted by the white-haired fellow.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he the fellow who spoke Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he was the man from the Red Bank office, I believe he said he was, Red Bank, N.J. And then 2 weeks later he came to the battery to see me, about a month later he came back with this Spanish fellow, and about another month these other two fellows came in. They were all FBI agents though. They showed me their book.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that the white-haired agent talked to you was when?

Mr. DELGADO. About January, about a month or a month and a half after Kennedy's assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been in the middle of December?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't think it was that close. Let's see, November 22---I think it was more to the last part of December, not to the middle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this FBI agent talk to you about this rifle practice that you have just told us about?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?

Mr. DELGADO. Basically the same thing I told you, except he didn't ask for it like you did, about the possibility of forging the score, and I didn't explain to him about the NCOs in the lines and in the pits, also keeping the score.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was not a good rifle shot; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that he did not show any unusual interest in his rifle, and in fact appeared less interested in weapons than the average marine?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. He was mostly a thinker, a reader. He read quite a bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us just a few minutes ago that you took third in the pool; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He asked me how I placed. I told him I placed pretty high; that's about all.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the report that I have in front of me of an interview that Special Agents Richard B. Murdoch and James A. Marley, Jr., took of you on January 15, 1964, at Holmdel, N.J., which would have been at the base---is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from the record here, from the report that I have, that the Spanish-speaking agent was Mr. Murdoch.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that this would have been the time that the Spanish-speaking man was there?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. That was the third visit I had from him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time the rifle practice, do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes: I did. I discussed the rifle practice all the time they came up.

Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you the same questions?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; same thing over and over again.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the report that I have says that Oswald, like most marines, took an interest in the pool--they call it a pool instead of a pot, but that is the same thing?

Mr. DELGADO. Arm. Yes; pool.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald took an interest in the pool, which was started for the marine getting the highest score. It says, however, "Delgado said neither he nor Oswald came close to winning."

Mr. DELGADO. No, no; that is erroneous, because I won. He didn't win at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never told these FBI agents that you yourself did not come close to winning?

Mr. DELGADO. No; because I was--I was one of the highest ones there, I always had an expert badge on me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were a good rifle shot?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; just like I got one now [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. That is an expert?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. This is a sharpshooter.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have both a sharpshooter and an expert badge; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. One for the M-1 rifle and the other for the carbine rather, this is the M-14, the new one.

Mr. LIEBELER. The scores that you got on that practice would be reflected in your military records, would they not?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; in all our--well, I think they call them 201 flies also in the Marines Corps--I can't remember what they are now, but they are all there, especially that one particular day, because that goes into your records. That's why they are so strict.

Mr. LIEBELER. And there is no chance in connection with that qualification firing that you can pencil in your score?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell the FBI that in your opinion Oswald had penciled in his qualifying score, did you? Or did you tell them that?

Mr. DELGADO. He may have done, you know; but if you got away with it you were more than lucky.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI about that possibility?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I told him he ,nay have, to qualify, because there was a lot of "Maggie's drawers" on his side. Now, he may have had some way of knowing who was pulling, that is another thing. Yon don't know who is out there in the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of yours or somebody you know, and they will help you out. you know, get together, like before we all go and separate, you know, and I will say to my buddy, "Well, look, I want to try and get on line 22, you get on target 22 and I will try to be the first one on line"; so help each other like that. And when they 7.o to the pits, they have their choice of getting on the lines, you know, so I will try to work it out with the fellow out there. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way. You just have to take your chances.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or firing, that the scores were kept by NCOs.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a common practice for the privates to make deals like this with the noncommissioned officers in connection with a thing like this?

Mr. DELGADO. They are making a deal with the other guys pulling the targets. See, the guy back there is also keeping a score.

Now, your NCO, particularly your NCO, may want to push you or make you qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the rifle range, see; so it's not all that strict. Like if I was line NCO and I had five men in my section, and four of them qualified, that means that some other day, maybe on my day off, I will have to come in with this other fellow, so I will help him along and push each other along.

You don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a man that is shooting poorly and give him a 190 score, see; you could just give him the bare minimum, 170 or 171, to make it look good.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just to qualify him?

MR. DELGADO. Just to qualify him.

MR. LIEBELER. So it is a possibility that that might have happened even in this?

MR. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you came in about third in this pool?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who the marines were that won it and took second place?

Mr. DELGADO. No. These men were mostly transients. Like I said, I didn't have too many close friends in the Marine Corps. I went to school with quite a few of them that were stationed with us, but I never got real close to any of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. This statement in this FBI report indicates that you said that neither you nor Oswald came close to winning the pool and that just must be a mistake; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, Correct. I think in the first statement, too I said that I have won too, I believe, the first one he took. I won, but he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how you did. Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the first interview that you had?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, the first one was at home. We had more time to talk, and I was at ease there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And where would that have been?

Mr. DELGADO. The address?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. 31 Oakwood Road---30 Oakwood Road, Leonardo, N.J.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that this incident where you had to go out and qualify was some time in the spring of 1959?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any closer than that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could have said that, but that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept on badgering me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking now about the interview when the Spanish-speaking agent was present?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them kept badgering you?

Mr. DELGADO. The Spanish agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was he badgering you about?

Mr. DELGADO. He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking at me, doing this [indicating], you know, and he was sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case of jitters, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. But I told him, it's all right in the textbooks, that's fine, you know, but my theory, my way is you are not going to get anything--I mean the majority of the stuff out of books, you have got to apply yourself on the outside; and he may have gotten an A in Spanish, and may write in--be able

to decipher anything in Spanish into English, which is fine, as long as he stays in the lower court, you know, where they are going to speak high Spanish, but when you go to mingle with the people and speak their language, you know, don't go in there with a college Spanish, because, to begin with, they are going to tell right off, you know, well, this guy is a highfalutin fellow, you know, They are not going to have anything to do with him.

You know, common Spanish is quite often overlooked, and that is where we make our mistake When we go---I think when we go abroad, because we try to speak Spanish the way El Camino Real tells you to speak Spanish, and that is not going to do.

If you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to hit it off right. Speak like they do. If they say damn; say damn, you know, get with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and this agent did not strike it off too well?

Mr. DELGADO. No, I am afraid not. We just spent hours arguing back and forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. We just referred to the El Camino Real that you mentioned, and you mentioned that that was a Spanish textbook; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. One in which the Castilian Spanish is taught?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us some more about your discussions with Oswald concerning the Castro movement or the situation in Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. We had quite many discussions regarding Castro. At the time I was in favor of Castro, I wholeheartedly supported him, and made it known that I thought he was a pretty good fellow, and that was one of the main things Oswald and I always hit off so well, we were along the same lines of thought. Castro at the time showed all possibilities of being a freedom-loving man, a democratic sort of person, that was going to do away with all tyranny and finally give the Cuban people a break. But then he turned around and started to purge the Russian purge, started executing all these pro-Batistas or anybody associated with a pro-Batista, just word of mouth. I would say he is a Batista, and right away they would grab him, give him a kangaroo court and shoot him. He and I had discussed about that, and right and wrong way that he should have gone about doing it.

Castro at the time, his brother Raoul was the only known Communist, and I mentioned the fact that he was a Communist, but that although Castro was the leader, I doubt if he would follow the Communist line of life, you know. At the time I don't remember Che Guevra being there. He came in after that. And we talked how we would like to go to Cuba and----

Mr. LIEBELER. You and Oswald did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. We were going to become officers, you know, enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he got a dishonorable discharge from, the Army, and he went to Castro and fought with Castro in the Escambres.

Mr. LIEBELER. A fellow named Morgan?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, you know.

So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the same line as Castro did at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. So we could go over there and become officers and lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you and Oswald talked about?

Mr. DELGADO. Right, things like that; and how we would go to take over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of Batista, American-

supported government, you know. And one of his main, pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning of Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER. So against Castro?

Mr. DELGADO. Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution movement?"

I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much of a fluency did Oswald develop in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't acquire too much. He could, speak a common Spanish, like "How are you? I am doing fine. Where are you going? Which way is this? Common stuff, you know, everyday stuff.

As far as getting in involved political argument, say, or like debate of some sort, he couldn't hold his own.

Mr. LIEBELER. He couldn't speak Spanish well enough to do something like that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. But as far as meeting the people out in public and asking for things and telling them something.

And, let's see, what else? Oh, yes, then he kept on asking me about how about--how he could go about helping the Castro government. I didn't know what to tell him, so I told him the best thing that I know was to get in touch with a Cuban Embassy, you know. But at that time that I told him this we were on friendly terms with Cuba, you know, so this wasn't no subversive or malintent, you know. I didn't know what to answer him. I told him go see them.

After a while he told me he was in contact with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Embassy?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I took it to be just a---one of his, you know, lies, you know, saying he was in contact with them, until one time I had the opportunity to go into his room, I was looking for--I was going out for the weekend, I needed a tie, he lent me the tie, and I seen this envelope in his footlocker, wall-locker, and it was addressed to him, and they had an official seal on it, and as far as I could recollect that was mail from Los Angeles, and he was telling me there was a Cuban Consul. And just after he started receiving these letters--you see, he would never go out, he'd stay near the post all the time. He always had money. That's why.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you just say?

Mr. DELGADO. He always had money, you know, he never spent it. He was pretty tight.

So then one particular instance, I was in the train station in Santa Aria, Calif., and Oswald comes in, on a Friday night. I usually make it every Friday night to Los Angeles and spend the weekend. And he is on the same platform, so we talked, and he told me he had to see some people in Los Angeles. didn't bother questioning him.

We rode into Los Angeles, nothing eventful happened, just small chatter, and once we got to Los Angeles I went my way and he went his.

I came to find out later on he had come back Saturday. He didn't stay like we did, you know, come back Sunday night, the last train.

Very seldom did he go out. At one time he went with us down to Tijuana, Mexico.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, tell me all that you can remember about Oswald's contact with the Cuban Consulate.

Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I stated to these FBI men, he had one visitor; after he started receiving letters be had one visitor. It was a man, because I got the call from the MP guard shack, and they gave me a call that Oswald had a visitor at the front gate. This man had to be a civilian, otherwise they would have let him in. So I had to find somebody to relieve Oswald, who was on guard, to go down there to visit with this fellow, and they spent about an hour and a half, 2 hours talking, I guess, and he came back. I don't know who the man was or what they talked about, but he looked nonchalant about the whole thing when he came back. He never mentioned who he was, nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did he talk to him, do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. About an hour and a half, 2 hours.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he supposed to be on duty that time?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he had the guy relieve him, calling me about every 15 minutes, where is his, the relief, where is the relief, you know, because he had already pulled his tour of duty and Oswald was posted to walk 4 hours and he only walked about an hour and a half before he received this visitor, you know, which was an odd time to visit, because it was after 6, and it must have been close to 10 o'clock when he had that visitor, because anybody, civilian or otherwise, could get on post up to 9 o'clock at night.. After 9 o'clock, if you are not military you can't get on that post. So it was after 9 o'clock at night that he had the visitor, it was late at night.

I don't think it could be his brother or father because I never knew that he had one, you know; in fact the only one I knew was a sick mother, and then later on, towards the end of our friendship there, he was telling me he was trying to get a hardship discharge because his mother was sick.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never asked Oswald who this fellow was that he talked to?

Mr. DELGADO. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did the shifts of duty run? This was a guard duty that he was on; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did those shifts run?

Mr. DELGADO. They ran, let's see, from 12 to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 12, 12 to 4, 4 to 8, like that; and he was roughly on 8-to-10 shift, you know. Must have been about 9 o'clock when the guy called.

Mr. LIEBELER. The 8-to-12 shift?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and I had to relieve another guard and put him on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you connect this visit that Oswald had at that time with the Cuban Consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. Personally; I did; because I thought it funny for him to be receiving a caller at such a late date time. Also, up to this time he hardly ever received mail; in fact he very seldom received mail from home, because I made it a policy, I used to pick up the mail for our hut and distribute it to the guys in there, and very seldom did I see one for him. But every so often, after he started to get in contact with these Cuban people, he started getting little pamphlets and newspapers, and he always got a Russian paper, and I asked him if it was, you know, a Commie paper--they let you get away with this in the Marine Corps in a site like this--and he said, "No, it's not Communist; it's a White Russian. To me that was Greek, you know, White Russian, so I guess he is not a Communist; but he was steady getting that periodical. It was a newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the Russian language?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he received that prior to the time he contacted the Cuban consulate; did he not?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he also started receiving letters, you know, and no books, maybe pamphlets, you know, little like church, things we get from church, you know, but it wasn't a church.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were they written in Spanish, any of them, do you know?

Mr. DELGADO. Not that I can recall; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that these things came to Oswald from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, I took it for granted that they did after I seen the envelope, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was on this envelope that made you think that?

Mr. DELGADO. Something like a Mexican eagle, with a big, impressive seal, you know. They had different colors on it, red and white; almost looked like our colors, you know. But I can't recall the seal. I just knew it was in Latin, United, something like that. I couldn't understand. It was Latin.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know for sure whether it was from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. No. But he had told me prior, just before I found that envelope in his wall locker, that he was receiving mail from them, and one time he offered to show it to me, but I wasn't much interested because at the time we had work to do, and I never did ask to see that paper again, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what his correspondence with the Cuban consulate was about?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that it had to do with the conversation that you had about going over to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. No. The only thing he told me was that right after he had this conversation with the Cuban people was that he was going to---once he got out of the service he was going to Switzerland, he was going to a school, and this school in Switzerland was supposed to teach him in 2 years--in 6 months what it had taken him to learn in psychology over here in 2 years, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the name of the school?

Mr. DELGADO. No; but he applied for it while in the service, and as far as I knew, that's where he was going once he got discharged.

Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation that you and Oswald had about going over in Cuba and helping Castro was just barracks talk?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't seriously consider----

Mr. DELGADO. No; but that's when I started getting scared. He started actually making plans, and how we would go about going to Cuba, you know, and where we would apply to go to Cuba and the people to contact if we wanted to go, you know, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. So you got the impression that he started to get serious about going to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. And about this time Castro started changing colors, so I wasn't too keen on that idea, myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald about this change in Castro's attitude and his approach?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. He said that was all due to mal--bad newspaper reporting, that we were distorting the true facts, and for the same reason I told you that, because we were mad, because now we wasn't getting the money from Cuba that we were before.

Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald basically took the position that you were getting a distorted view of Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; and we weren't getting the true facts of what was happening in Cuba. We were getting the distorted facts.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no definite way of knowing how much correspondence Oswald received from the Cuban consulate, do you?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he had received some correspondence?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether the Russian newspaper that he got came from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He was getting that way before he even started corresponding with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever received any books or pamphlets or materials in any language other than Russian---aside from English, of course?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He had one book that was English, Das Kapital. I think it was Russian, a book, like I said. I go-by Russian when it's big block letters.

And he had one book like that. He spoke Russian pretty good, so I understand.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you understand that?

Mr. DELGADO. He tried to teach me some Russian. He would put out a whole phrase, you know. In return for my teaching him Spanish, he would try to teach me Russian. But it's a tongue twister.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any understanding of the Russian language?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Basically I wasn't interested in it. In order to learn a language, I think you have to be motivated. You have to have a desire to use this language, you know, and I had no need to learn Russian. And just the reverse of him. He wanted to learn Spanish. He had some idea of using Spanish later on. I'm sure if this hadn't happened, he probably would be over there now, if he hadn't been already.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Cuba, you mean?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that he has been in Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, a guy like him would find--would have no difficulty in getting into Cuba. They would accept him real fast. The fact that he was in Russia. Now, all these years in Russia, he could have come over to Cuba and learned some doctrine. That's where he got his ideas to start this Fair Play for Cuba Committee down in Louisiana. That must have been supported by Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know that he was involved in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in Louisiana?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, this was brought out in the newscast at the time of his arrest.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no direct knowledge of that, though?